Emmanuel Macron on #MeToo, Taylor Swift’s Impact and ‘Emily in Paris’

French President Emmanuel Macron apologizes for being late. But one could forgive the tardiness. After all, the leader of one of Europe’s largest economies is handling geopolitical disasters in the Middle East and in Ukraine, while also juggling a political crisis on his home turf. Indeed, this interview was nearly canceled after Iran launched a missile attack on Israel, escalating fighting in the war-torn region. “I didn’t expect the day to unfold the way it did,” Macron said with a flash of sadness in his eyes.

But the topics at hand were ones particularly close to his heart. Under Macron’s presidency, which began in 2017 after his surprise victory as a 39-year-old political novice, France has sought to reclaim its place as a global center of culture. Think of the wild creative success of the Paris Olympics, which foregrounded the nation’s history and savoir faire, or of productions like Netflix’s “Emily in Paris,” which centers French design, language and je ne sais quoi — so effectively that Macron’s wife, Brigitte, made an appearance on the series this year.

These cultural landmarks lend a lot of shine to France, but the corporate entertainment industry there has also made itself known on the world stage. French media company Banijay took over Endemol Shine, and Mediawan became a global player with a raft of high-profile acquisitions, including Brad Pitt’s Plan B. French luxury giants like LVMH and Kering have also invested in the film world: Hollywood talent agency CAA was bought by Groupe Artémis, owned by Kering boss François-Henri Pinault, and LVMH launched 22 Montaigne Entertainment. The Cannes Film Festival, meanwhile, continues to launch major Oscar contenders from “Parasite” to “Anatomy of a Fall” to this year’s “Anora” and “Emilia Perez.” Under Macron’s watch, the country has been ahead of the curve on a number of pressing topics. France was the first to spring an EU directive into action by obligating streamers such as Netflix to invest in local productions, and France was also a leading force behind the EU’s AI Act, the world’s first law on use of artificial intelligence.

But all of this happens against the backdrop of Macron’s growing unpopularity. He might go down in history as one of the country’s most polarizing presidents, having forced through Parliament unpopular changes to its pension plan, raising the age of eligibility from 62 to 64. A youthful and energetic figure elected on a mandate of change, Macron recalls Barack Obama in his matinee-idol charisma and lyrical oratory. Seen from abroad, Macron is among the more compelling arguments for the French style of doing business; at home, the picture is less clear.

Macron, 46, sat down with us in an ornate meeting room known as “the green room” (because the walls are painted green), located next to his office in the Élysée Palace. Talking to Variety on the eve of the Francophonie Summit, a two-day conference on French language and culture that will bring nearly 50 heads of state from around the world, Macron addressed the role France can play in an evolving media climate and why the movies and art it produces are so vital to its future. From Taylor Swift to the recent Paris Olympics — which included performances from Celine Dion and Lady Gaga — the leader discussed the importance of pop culture in a world filled with so much darkness.

France recently organized a spectacular Summer Olympics in Paris. What’s your favorite memory?

I’m hesitating between [swimmer] Léon Marchand, when he won his two gold medals in two hours on the same day. It was incredible. He wasn’t the favorite. And in judo as well, when we got the gold medal for the team after this incredible finale with Japan with Teddy Riner.

Did you get emotional when Celine Dion sang at the opening ceremony?

I did! I think everybody was emotional at this very moment. Obviously, I knew that it was Celine Dion, but it was a surprise. You could feel the surprise in the audience when she appeared — all the lights, this moment of celebration, Celine Dion, appearing suddenly by the Eiffel Tower, as well as the song itself [Edith Piaf ’s “Hymne à l’Amour”], created a huge emotion.

What did you think of Lady Gaga‘s performance in French?

It was very impressive and very generous! I know she worked a lot. She decided to sing Zizi Jeanmaire and be part of this French culture. And she took a lot of risks, and she did great. I’m extremely grateful to her. And I told her, for us, it meant a lot.

How will France get a financial and tourism boost from these Olympics?

Our country managed to welcome the world in perfect security conditions, sharing our culture, heritage and art of living, along with our festive spirit. We’ve been able to do so with the boldness that characterizes us. It’s the best image we could project of our country. In Paris, we welcomed 1.7 million tourists during the first week of the Olympics, with very good prospects until the end of the summer for international visitors. Overall, the beautiful images of Paris and France during the Olympic Games will undoubtedly have a very positive impact in the short and medium term.

What advice would you give to the L.A. organizers of the Olympic Games, set for the summer of 2028?

Oscar Wilde said something like, “Don’t try to be someone else. It’s already taken.” We did something unique because we wanted to make something unique. So do your own Olympic Games. Don’t try to copy anything. Be creative. Be in line with your identity, your history, even your paradoxes. Be yourself.

We’re celebrating Francophonie this week. What’s your personal connection to its mission?

I owe everything to French culture and language. I’m a child of a French province, from Amiens, and my life changed because I was lucky enough to have a grandmother who made me love reading, who taught me literature. I spent hours as a child and teenager reading aloud with her and inhabiting French literature. I’ve never had an unimaginative daily life, thanks to culture and literature, and to music, and then later, cinema. Culture is what prevents me from being closed off in this world. It’s what opened every door for me.

What are some of your favorite movies?

I love French movies of the ’60s and ’70s, for example “Cent Mille Dollars au Soleil” (“Greed in the Sun”) or “Le Deuxième Souffle” (“Second Breath”). “Les Tontons Flingueurs” (“Crooks in Clover”) too. I love this period of French cinema.

At the box office, French films like “A Little Something Extra” and “The Count of Monte Cristo” outperformed Hollywood blockbusters. Local film production is supported by subsidies it receives from the National Centre of Cinema, France’s film board. Given France’s growing deficit, can the government still support its film industry?

Yes. We have a system of levies on revenues with the CNC, which has done an extraordinary job. We have a cinema that has always resisted major crises, which is not true everywhere in Europe. We need films that are popular and aimed at the general public. I myself am a great fan of these films. And alongside these, we need films by young or established auteurs that may draw fewer people to theaters but are nevertheless highly creative. These are important to our cinema culture, and we also finance them with the help of the CNC, thereby helping the whole network of independent producers. This creative biodiversity is very important because there shouldn’t be just one model, because there isn’t just one audience, and because the way of explaining the world, of looking at it, varies. I’m attached to this model.

If the far right takes control in France, will the country’s unique system of support for artists be jeopardized?

I don’t think it can ever be taken for granted. Decisions could be made in a rash manner. I don’t think everyone is pleased that France has such a lively, pluralistic, irreverent culture. There are films I like, and films I don’t like. There are films that sometimes even attack what you do. And that’s great. That’s the strength of a country. And that’s what Voltaire said: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Are you concerned that many big media companies in France don’t trade on the country’s stock exchange? For example, Banijay is listed in Amsterdam, and Vivendi is preparing to list Canal+ in London.

It’s more a question of fate, because France has the biggest stock market platform in Europe: the CAC 40, and the biggest groups are on it. It’s up to a few media groups to set up shop in Paris. We have the market depth, but if they go abroad, it’s because they have the right analysts and investors in these other places. They still remain in Europe. And that’s what matters the most. I’d prefer them to be in Paris. We have a very big market; we have very big players. I think they should look at Paris, which is now the biggest financial center.

But more often than not, these big French groups are being lured to the United States too.

That’s normal, because there’s even more room for growth. I’ve seen a lot of groups over the last few years that have been listed in the United States, and when they saw the constraints it brought, they came back to Europe in the end.

When Netflix launched in France, there was talk about building a European rival. A decade later, all those attempts failed. Is it still possible to create a European streaming service as powerful as Netflix?

You’re right. Netflix, and Disney are all Anglo-Saxon platforms. They have power because they aggregate content, so they become gateways. What we’re in the process of doing, on a much different scale but on a Franco-German, European level, with [public broadcaster] Arte is very important. We’ve put a lot of re- sources into it. On the other hand, our industry in France has held up very well since the launch of these platforms, and we’re very good at producing content. That’s our strength. We’ve got great actors, we’ve got great writers, we’ve got great directors. We’ve got independent producers, and we’ve also got production groups that produce a lot of documentaries, shorts, feature films and series. So we produce the content. I’m very attached to that. That’s also why we developed these training programs just after COVID. We just want our imagination to be able to express and export itself.

But it’s true that we’re still missing very big producers, broadcasters and a Netflix-type platform. Nothing is hopeless. We have major players who are French: Vivendi, Canal+, Banijay, Mediawan. And then we have these vital distribution networks: MK2, Pathé, Gaumont, which are also very strong French entrepreneurial adventures that have both produced content and mastered their distribution.

Speaking of Netflix, what did you think of your wife Brigitte’s cameo in the fourth season of “Emily in Paris”?

I was super proud, and she was very happy to do it. It’s just a few minutes, but I think it was a very good moment for her. I think it’s good for the image of France. “Emily in Paris” is super positive in terms of attractiveness for the country. For my own business, it’s a very good initiative.

“Emily in Paris” is moving to Rome for its fifth season. How do you get Emily back in Paris?

We will fight hard. And we will ask them to remain in Paris! “Emily in Paris“ in Rome doesn‘t make sense.

Have they tried to get you to do a cameo?

I’m less attractive than Brigitte!

What do you think of Taylor Swift’s “Eras Tour,” which has been a global sensation, and what did it mean to the French economy when she performed here in May?

It’s very impressive! She’s one of the few artists who are able to gather so many people. Happily, the concerts in Paris went well. It was before the terrorist concerns, and she had some concerts canceled in other parts of the continent. For French people, for all generations and for the economy in the cities where she appeared, it was absolutely unique. This is a phenomenon.

France also played a leading role in drafting the EU’s AI Act, which is the first law regulating artificial intelligence. Do the new rules leave enough room for innovation?

Artificial intelligence is going to revolutionize many sectors, from health care to energy, for better or for worse. There’s a race to innovate, so we have to be part of it. We need to continue to train and retain talented people, invest more public and private money — that’s one of my European battles — and produce more data centers, because that’s a key element. And also, we need to have low-carbon, inexpensive, controllable energy, because we keep forgetting artificial intelligence can help with that. That’s the priority. We need to develop broad language models that match our preferences. That’s why Mistral AI [a French company specializing in artificial intelligence] is so important, because these are European LLMs [a type of generative AI system], and there’s a lot of bias that can be created right from the start in these models. Finally, we need to facilitate dissemination in key sectors, because this will transform our productivity and our ability to create value, wealth and innovation.

We also need to think together about the regulatory framework. That’s why we’re organizing a summit next February, the AI Action Summit. The idea is to endorse the technology and invest, but we’re also going to need rules and regulations. We need them, but they have to be global if they are to be effective. It has to be thought out at the right pace.

But we’re going to have to regulate the responsibility of players who distribute AI. We’re going to have to define the rules for knowing what’s true and what’s false. How do we know for sure that it’s a real video? That it’s not a video of the AI distorting an image it has recovered from both of us sitting here, for instance?

Did you know there is a deepfake video of you and Taylor Swift dancing on social media? I assume that you’ve never really danced with Taylor Swift.

I haven’t seen that one, but I saw one this summer where I was made to look like I was kissing one of our male security officers. Millions of people have seen it. Which isn’t a bad thing in itself, but it’s not the reality. We can do all sorts of things with AI, but for people who are vulnerable, it can plunge them into depression. It can be a form of harassment. It destabilizes people, and it can disinform, which can upset our democracies. This is something that needs to be regulated.

How can it be regulated?

We regulate it by imposing responsibility on the people who disseminate this content to moderate it, too, and to say: “This was produced with AI.” We’ll know, “Well, then it’s not true.” We need to create these regulations for our democracies to function.

AI was a central issue in Hollywood’s actors and writers strikes. Does this AI Act protect European authors and creators?

The AI Act was a European victory for the rights of authors. Many European countries didn’t have France’s copyright system. We imposed it. This is already something that has prevented the value of the works of authors, photographers, etc., from being completely lost. But is this copyright system well controlled and effective? The answer is no. But today, with music streaming services, singers do not receive fair remuneration.

In the case of streaming, they decide to pay people who are streamed a lot very well. But in the music field, for instance, they undervalue a variety of artists who have average followings, whereas an artist who is suddenly downloaded by a few young people over a period of a few months will be fairly remunerated. It’s not that simple! All that to say, it’s an economic choice that defines the remuneration you get for your authors. For me, maybe I’d like to see singers like Étienne Daho or Barbara Pravi earn a bit of money at the same time as Taylor Swift, so that it’s not all one-sided. The model of streamers is skewed today.

Pavel Durov, the Russian-born CEO of the messaging app Telegram, was arrested in Paris on Aug. 24 on preliminary charges of allegedly enabling criminal activity on his platform. Was Durov’s arrest a political decision?

There was no political decision behind this arrest, only the action of our justice system in response to violations of the law it had observed. Without safeguards, some platforms have contributed to the rise of intolerance and hatred. It is also a playground for those who work against democracies. Under the guise of protecting freedom of expression, complete lawless zones have flourished. For us, as governments, this is unacceptable.

Digital players have an obligation to cooperate in the fight against all illegal online activities, and our justice system is empowered to act in cases of violation. This is what happened when the founder of Telegram was detained by the French judiciary for refusing to cooperate.

Justice will take its course without interference, but I note that its founder announced that he had updated the platform’s terms of service and privacy policy, with the goal of ensuring that basic public order rules are respected on the platform. He notably announced that he’s ready to cooperate with authorities in case of illegal activity on the platform, which is a crucial step forward. With every revolution, there is a period of adjustment. This episode has shown us that there is no inevitability when it comes to major digital players and that citizens and their governments are capable of setting rules and enforcing them.

The #MeToo movement, which contributed to the arrest of Harvey Weinstein and the firings of Matt Lauer and Bill O’Reilly in the United States, is still gaining momentum in France. What do you think of its impact on the film industry here? What’s your opinion of the César Awards’ new rule making anyone accused of sexual misconduct ineligible?

First of all, we have to talk about the victims. The women who have suffered sexual and gender-based violence and whose lives have been traumatized — whose careers, in some cases, have been shattered. And then, in these circles, there was obviously a form of complacency, of omertà, of habits that had been established and that are intolerable. Now there’s a backlash. It’s normal that these women, all of a sudden, react like that. I support the fight against violence against women, and it’s a universal fight. However, I believe in the presumption of innocence. After that, when it comes to professional rules, it’s up to the profession to define them.

You always have to find the right rules to ensure that victims are respected, that their words are taken into account, that justice is done and — above all — that everyone is protected for the future so it doesn’t happen again. Then we need to create the conditions for living together. We can’t fall into a system of denunciation where everyone is dismissed without having a chance to prove their innocence or having an opportunity to respond to accusations.

Were you surprised that Joe Biden stepped out of the presidential race?

I was surprised. I think it was a personal choice, but I have a lot of respect because it’s always a very difficult choice. I do respect him and what he decided because he did it for the country.

Is the U.S. ready to elect its first female president?

The U.S. is a great democracy, so they are ready to be innovative and move forward. I have to say, it’s not super innovative to elect a woman. They are half of humanity and half of the country. Same on our side. So yes, of course!